the Illegality of Drivers Daily Log Books

[Orson Wells as CitizenCain]

Hey,
I have just found this NG this evening, I guess it is no surprise that
it reads similar to how a CB sounds. Anyway drivers I would like to
bring up a couple points on Drivers Daily Log Books that I haven't
heard in the five years I have held my CDL and am currently trying to
get the word out to as many as possible so that these issues can be
discussed in a serious and adamant tone. So often we truckers do talk
about "Well if we would all just come together on this we could get
this to stop." but beyond those words never does each trucker decide
to make the numerous phone calls, emails, and redundant discussions
with others to inform and take action. So here it is, my attempt, and
this newsgroup now apart of it, if you all will help pitch in to what
I am saying. It centers around the illegality of Drivers Daily Log
Books on the basis of violating our 5th Amendment Rights through self
incrimination, furthermore there is a violation of our 6th Amendment
Rights when we are falsely imprisoned with the '10 hour Out of
Service' violations that are handed out by the DOT officers at Weigh
Stations, Inspection Points, and Port of Entries. Now before I
continue, is there any input, interest, or motivation here in this NG
to hear and fight on behalf of a lawsuit seeking Class Action status
against the FMCSA on those beginning points with many more to follow?
Please respond I'd like to here your input. Below is a copy of my
eMail to the FMCSA and several other organizations to make / argue my
point, but I need some help. My voice alone will not be heard but if
every trucker in America will crank up there engine on this matter and
make it a daily activity to call and write the government and seek out
lawyers then something will get done and the Log Books of today will
be told to rookie drivers of tomorrow about how stupid things used to
be.

As others have previously tried the same thing before you even had the
gumption, they lost.

just like you, huh Bullis?

Practically every driver in his career has asked, "Isn't this self
incrimination?".

Only you have asked that question. And that's because you're stupid.

Why would it be? If you had been following the law to
begin with, you would not be in violation. The speed limit is 65mph
and you were caught doing 90. If you were obeying the law you would
not now be paying for the privilege of speeding.

Since when the fuck is speeding a privilege, st00pid?

What is "illegal detention"? That is when you tell me that I can't go
on about my way, or that if I do, I will be arrested.

St00pid, if the officer wants to detain you because you're acting like a
smartass and making comments like these, then he or she has every right in
the world to do so, and if you continue acting like a smartass, they're only
going to become suspicious and angry, cuff you, put you in the back, search
your vehicle and, in your particular case, impound it.

When you are
stopped for an inspection, this is not illegal detention. That is the
DOT doing their job because you are driving a truck on the roadway
that must meet certain requirements.

And in your case because you were weaving while watching the family mini-van
go down the highway.

If you're shut down for 10 hours, who's fault is that? Yours. It is
not illegal detention. It could be denial of due process, but not
illegal detention. If you're shut down until repairs are made, that is
not illegal detention. That is ensuring your vehicle meets the law.

Your legal advice is about as useful as Columbo after some cough syrup,
Bullis.

A
few times I've thanked officers for finding a problem because it may
have been something not easily found unless you were a mechanic.

So police officers are mechanics now? Or are you just too stupid to know
your own vehicle?

Like so many others before you, your efforts will be met with deaf
ears and blind eyes.

Or st00pid comments and bad legal advice.

[Orson Wells as CitizenCain]

On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 22:39:39 -0500, "Orson Wells as CitizenCain"
Normally I do not reply to "alex cain" but in this case, some
clarification is needed as alex has no clues on the trucking industry.

St00pid, you just burned down a warehouse full of irony meters with that
statement. I hope you're happy, as now the irony meter industry may have to
lay off some of its employees.

Post by Orson Wells as CitizenCain

Hey,
I have just found this NG this evening, I guess it is no surprise that
it reads similar to how a CB sounds. Anyway drivers I would like to
bring up a couple points on Drivers Daily Log Books that I haven't
heard in the five years I have held my CDL and am currently trying to
get the word out to as many as possible so that these issues can be
discussed in a serious and adamant tone. So often we truckers do talk
about "Well if we would all just come together on this we could get
this to stop." but beyond those words never does each trucker decide
to make the numerous phone calls, emails, and redundant discussions
with others to inform and take action. So here it is, my attempt, and
this newsgroup now apart of it, if you all will help pitch in to what
I am saying. It centers around the illegality of Drivers Daily Log
Books on the basis of violating our 5th Amendment Rights through self
incrimination, furthermore there is a violation of our 6th Amendment
Rights when we are falsely imprisoned with the '10 hour Out of
Service' violations that are handed out by the DOT officers at Weigh
Stations, Inspection Points, and Port of Entries. Now before I
continue, is there any input, interest, or motivation here in this NG
to hear and fight on behalf of a lawsuit seeking Class Action status
against the FMCSA on those beginning points with many more to follow?
Please respond I'd like to here your input. Below is a copy of my
eMail to the FMCSA and several other organizations to make / argue my
point, but I need some help. My voice alone will not be heard but if
every trucker in America will crank up there engine on this matter and
make it a daily activity to call and write the government and seek out
lawyers then something will get done and the Log Books of today will
be told to rookie drivers of tomorrow about how stupid things used to
be.

As others have previously tried the same thing before you even had the
gumption, they lost.

just like you, huh Bullis?

Do you even understand what is being discussed? No. You just have to
show off your total ignorance to almost anything.

There go some more irony meters. You're just decimating the entire line,
aren't you?

Post by Orson Wells as CitizenCain

Practically every driver in his career has asked, "Isn't this self
incrimination?".

Only you have asked that question. And that's because you're stupid.

The question asked is based within the original post. Alex is
attempting to make it appear as if I am the only person who has ever
asked the question. That question has been the basis of several
lawsuits against the federal government.

I'm not attempting to do anything other than show how stupid you are, and
you are doing a great job proving that for me.

Post by Orson Wells as CitizenCain

Why would it be? If you had been following the law to
begin with, you would not be in violation. The speed limit is 65mph
and you were caught doing 90. If you were obeying the law you would
not now be paying for the privilege of speeding.

Since when the fuck is speeding a privilege, st00pid?

Driving is a privilege, so therefor, speeding is also a privilege.

*boggle*

"Red is a color, stoplights are red, so therefore stoplights are colors."

Logic was never your strong point, st00pid. It's down there with personal
hygiene and people skills on your list of "never to do."

Post by Orson Wells as CitizenCain

What is "illegal detention"? That is when you tell me that I can't go
on about my way, or that if I do, I will be arrested.

St00pid, if the officer wants to detain you because you're acting like a
smartass and making comments like these, then he or she has every right in
the world to do so, and if you continue acting like a smartass, they're only
going to become suspicious and angry, cuff you, put you in the back, search
your vehicle and, in your particular case, impound it.

I would strongly suggest and urge that you take the time to learn
about illegal detention.

Not from you, jackass. Everything I said was true. An officer doesn't know
if you're a nun or a nitwit. If you're mouthing off or acting suspicious,
you're getting handcuffed and detained while he tries to figure out why you
are acting the way that you are acting. And since it's you, chances are good
you're going to spend some time detained.

No officer can legally hold you just because
he wants to talk you. I can be as rude, nasty, or beligerant as I
want.

Uh-huh. Then why don't you try demonstrating that bullshit for everyone
sometime? Then come back here and lie about how the officer let you get away
with it. I just pray the one that deals with you has both mace and taser.
"DON'T TASE ME, YOU FUCKIN' PIG! OW!"

Legally, he can not cuff you just because he wants to talk.

If he suspects so much as you having a pocket knife or threatening his life
then he can do what he wants to you.

He
can not search your vehicle because of your attitude.

Yes he can, st00pid. If you're acting suspicious, you're going to get
searched. If you're acting beligerent, you're going to get searched. If
you're acting like you're drunk or high, you're going to get searched.

Post by Orson Wells as CitizenCain

When you are
stopped for an inspection, this is not illegal detention. That is the
DOT doing their job because you are driving a truck on the roadway
that must meet certain requirements.

And in your case because you were weaving while watching the family mini-van
go down the highway.

Alex, notice I said stopped. As at a scale house. So I wouldn't be
weaving down the road at a scale house.

Of course not. The family mini-van wouldn't be stopped there.

Post by Orson Wells as CitizenCain

If you're shut down for 10 hours, who's fault is that? Yours. It is
not illegal detention. It could be denial of due process, but not
illegal detention. If you're shut down until repairs are made, that is
not illegal detention. That is ensuring your vehicle meets the law.

Your legal advice is about as useful as Columbo after some cough syrup,
Bullis.

Compared to yours which would be like Columbo sneezing.

Nice, the ol "rubber you're glue" routine. It won't work, st00pid. You're in
too deep and you smell like shit.

Post by Orson Wells as CitizenCain

A
few times I've thanked officers for finding a problem because it may
have been something not easily found unless you were a mechanic.

So police officers are mechanics now? Or are you just too stupid to know
your own vehicle?

Why didn't you address this one, Bullis?

Post by Orson Wells as CitizenCain

Like so many others before you, your efforts will be met with deaf
ears and blind eyes.

Or st00pid comments and bad legal advice.

[Orson Wells as CitizenCain]

Normally I do not reply to "alex cain" but in this case, some
clarification is needed as alex has no clues on the trucking industry.

Nor do you, given the level of correctness in the answers you provide in
here.

Do you even understand what is being discussed? No. You just have to
show off your total ignorance to almost anything.

Hello black kettle, this is the pot calling....

The question asked is based within the original post. Alex is
attempting to make it appear as if I am the only person who has ever
asked the question. That question has been the basis of several
lawsuits against the federal government.

Uh...I don't think so. Of course, you're free to cite one of them if you
want.
But let's be clear before you start drumming up non-relevant lawsuits.
The issue is log-books and having to show them when asked for it, and/or
being detained for a period of time when caught over on hours or when no
determination can be made as to when one last had a rest break.
No suits that I am aware of, have ever been entertained to address those
two issues, as being illegal or unconstitutional. They would be thrown
out as being without merit, and just that quickly too.

There is merit to the lawsuit as it deals with the legality of a law.
Since the question is "self incrimination", then yes it can be
contested with merit.

Bullis doing his best Johnny Cochran impersonation.

Post by Orson Wells as CitizenCain

Why would it be? If you had been following the law to
begin with, you would not be in violation. The speed limit is 65mph
and you were caught doing 90. If you were obeying the law you would
not now be paying for the privilege of speeding.

Since when the fuck is speeding a privilege, st00pid?

Driving is a privilege, so therefor, speeding is also a privilege.

Bullis...that rates right up there as one of your more stupendous
statements. Or should I call it among your stupidest?
If you were obeying the law....now think real hard....do you get
it?....and you were caught doing 90 mpg, which is 25 mph over the speed
limit....right?....it's called "paying for the privilege to speed"?
It's called disobeying the law, or in this case the posted speed limit,
and there are ramifications for doing so. In most states, 25 mph over
the limit is an arrestable offense. You don't get to bypass jail. You
get to post bond, bail your car outta the pokey, and you still have to
pay a fine when you go to court.
Now I don't know about you, but that sure doesn't sound like a
"privilege" to me.

As an officer of the law you firmly believe that driving is a
"right"?"

As a fucking moron posting in this thread, do you firmly believe that what
you're saying isn't stupid?

What do you do when you come across a person who has no license to
operate? Cite him and let him drive on?

Two entirely different situations, st00pid.

On the trucknet bbs there is a poster there known as "Crystal Pistol".
He is a state trooper in Va. He once posted a photo he took of a
trucker passing him at 96mph. I don't recall what was said but he was
just showing the truck photo more than anything.

What the hell does that have to do with this thread, Bullis?

As for being arrested, you can be arrested and booked for jay walking.

When did it happen to you?

I would strongly suggest and urge that you take the time to learn
about illegal detention. No officer can legally hold you just because
he wants to talk you.

You really think so, don't you?

Can you cuff me to ask for my driver's license? I don't think so.

Can you be cuffed for acting like an asshole toward the officer?

I can be as rude, nasty, or beligerant as I want.

So can he or she, in response of course, up to and including arresting
you for any number of offenses on the books in many states.

Legally, he can not cuff you just because he wants to talk.

Bullis, that all depends on what he or she is talking to you about, and
the nature of your responses, your demeanor, and whether or not you are
under suspicion of wrongdoing.

wrong.

No, st00pid. That's correct. But if you want to show up on "World's
stupidest drivers" or one of those other Court/TruTV programs, then be my
guest. I'd love to watch you stumble around on dash cam acting like a fool
and mouthing off to the officer before getting a face full of pepper spray.

I was a duly sworn officer, just off-duty and in uniform on June 6, 1978
at 8:00 pm, when my car was ID'd by a witness to a breakin at a gun
store, as the "getaway car". The place was ransacked and robbed of more
than 60 guns and ammunition. I was pulled over, yanked out of my car in
uniform, cuffed and stuffed before I could squeak out a fart, by
officers I knew and had interacted with on the job, who worked just
across the line in Tennessee.

In that case, an investigation of a crime, yes, they had the legal
right to stop you and question you. They could legally cuff you while
you are patted down. They didn't find your off duty weapon on you or
your badge? Idiots if they didn't.

St00pid, just let him finish the fucking story. Besides, do you think that
every law enforcement officer out there is a saint? It doesn't matter if you
work with with guy. If he's suspected of a crime, he's going to be
investigated for doing it.

The only thing they wanted to talk to me about, was the location of the
key to the trunk of my Oldsmobile. Now fifteen minutes later, I was
uncuffed, and apologized to. It was only THEN that I was told why I was
cuffed and placed in the back of a patrol car, and why I was targeted
for the same.

Yep. No search warrant needed either.

Be afraid, st00pid. Be very, very afraid. And leave the child porn at home.

You act like you never did the same thing to another officer of the
law from another jurisdiction.

How do you know that he didn't, dumbass?

"Cops" showed a stop by a florida county officer. His PC was the fact
the license plate "county" name was covered and unreadable. When asked
if the driver had a weapon on him, the man said "yes I do". What did
our fine officer of the law say next? "Why do you have one?" No. He
was just hell bent on writing the citation.

Always watching tv, huh st00pid?

BTW, the man he stopped? Was a high ranking officer in the neighboring
county. Even though the stopped driver was beligerant as hell, the cop
in uniform kept his cool as he should and not once made any threats to
arrest or cuff.

You watch too much television, st00pid.

You ever seen the one video of the guy that gets stopped by a state
trooper and the driver is royally beligerant? The state trooper just
stands there and listens. Now that sir, is the way it's supposed to be
done.

You're not a cop, Bullis. Stop trying to act like one, you arrogant shit.

If an Officer encounters any potential subject that gives him or her
reason to fear for his or her own safety, he or she can cuff the subject
until that fear or risk is either confirmed or eliminated as a
possibility.

If there truly is a reasonable fear. He can not cuff just because he
wants to ask you a few simple questions.

Yes he can.

"Cops" shows two fine officers stopping a car driven by a white woman
with a white man passenger. The driver gets out and immediately says,
"You're not searching me". She is neither cuffed nor searched. But the
cops cuff and search her passenger. They can't perform a search
without the cuffs?

You really are one dumb s.o.b., Bullis.

He can not search your vehicle because of your attitude.

It's done every day, I assure you, and there's not a thing you can do
about it. The Supreme Court has ruled on this. Attitude and demeanor are
considered just cause to conduct a search. Acting merely nervous is just
cause for a search. That one came down the pike just this last year.

There could be any number of reasons for "acting nervously" which is
purely a judgement call. Certain medications, or lack of, could cause
such actions.

So which ones are you not taking?

Let's say you stop me and with every question I answer, "fuck you".
That does not give you legal right to search my vehicle.

Yes it does. It also gives him the right to cuff you and toss you in the
patrol car.

You can search by standing outside of the vehicle and looking in,
which is known as "in plane sight".

Actually "in plane sight" would probably require looking skyward, you
dumbshit.

But you can't legally open the
glove box or look under the seats. In the trunk, you can only move
various items to allow a better look, but you can't open a piece of
luggage. That requires a search warrant.

Look, Bullis. Here's the bottom line. Given your track record for st00pidity
and lies, it's probably all happened to you before, and if that is true then
it's obvious to everyone that you just stood there and took it up the ass,
blubbering like a schoolgirl. But if you truly want to test it, you are
welcome to do so, and also welcome to post about how much bail you required
later after you were taken to jail.

Before you go mouthin off on that issue, the only law enforcement
agency who has that right without a warrant is the "Border Patrol".

Not this shit again.

Hell Bullis...you live to watch TV. Haven't you been paying attention to
to the latest episode of Cops? Searching during a traffic stop is almost
routine these days. Attitude by the person driving is the MAIN reason
that searches are performed.

Yes it is and I'll bet that many of those searches are dismissed as
being illegal.

I wouldn't bet anything if I were you. Your record is quite low.

Your full body cavity search, as detestable as that prospect is, is
just one traffic stop away, when you stupidly open your mouth in
defiance to the right Officer.
But then I know it'll never happen, because despite all the bravado you
offer in here, you're meek and mild in real life, totally timid and
pathetic, and you'd piss your pants if the cuffs were shown to you.

I've been to court bubba.

No shit. With the way you drive I'm surprised your license hasn't been
suspended.

If I believe it's a bogus bust, I will
challenge it. As a matter of fact, dickhead, as a security guard, I
carried a pair of cuffs with me while at work. As well as a weapon.

Just how long were you a security guard, Bullis?

I carried the cuffs in case an officer of the law needed assistance
somewhere while I was in uniform.
As under Ohio law, at the time, security guards could legally carry
side arms to and from work.

Nobody in their right fucking mind would provide you a weapon, Bullis. You'd
either shoot yourself by accident or end up shooting an innocent individual
and opening up your employer to a multi-million dollar wrongful death suit.

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.
Mark Twain(attributed)